Learn about the benefits of joining NARPM from 2016 President, Bart Sturzl. In this interview, we get into the benefits of being part of NARPM, the designations you can earn (and how those can help you grow), and the importance of connecting & collaborating with your peers.
[03:15] What is NARPM?
[05:09] Should I attend the NARPM conference?
[05:55] What benefits does NARPM provide for new property managers?
[11:17] Technology is causing the PM industry to grow at lightning speed: here’s how.
[12:04] How can independent PMs compete with the franchise players?
[15:45] The PM industry has several designations. Learn how these can help your business grow!
[21:38] Discover the unique insight Bart has gleaned from being president of NARPM.
[26:31] Is NARPM the best source of information on how to be a property manager?
[29:22] How can I join?
The National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) Website: http://narpm.org
Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors and expand your rent roll, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker.
At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to grow property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, expand the market, and help the best property managers win. If you enjoy this episode, do me a favor, open up iTunes, find the DoorGrowShow, subscribe, and then give us a real review. Thank you for helping us with that vision.
I’m your host, Property Management Growth Hacker, Jason Hull, the Founder of OpenPotion, GatherKudos, ThunderLocal, and of course, DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show.
This is DoorGrowShow Episode number 16. My guest in this episode is Bart Sturzl, the 2016 President of NARPM, the National Association of Residential Property Managers. If you’re not a member of NARPM, be sure to listen to this. This is really relevant to you. If you are a member of NARPM, you’ll enjoy this as well. Let’s get into the show.
We are on air. This is Jason Hull with DoorGrowShow. I’m hanging out here with Bart Sturzl, is that how you say your name?
Bart: That’s right. Sturzl. Very good.
Jason: Great. Bart is the President of NARPM as some people call it, which stands for…
Bart: The National Association of Residential Property Managers.
Jason: Alright. That’s a mouthful.
Bart: It is.
Jason: It’s a really long name.
Bart: That’s why we call it NARPM.
Jason: Right, okay. Bart, I’m really excited to have you here. DoorGrow, we’ve been a member of NARPM for a little while. I just actually renewed my dues I think yesterday as an affiliate, which that’s what vendors do, I guess.
Bart: Awesome, yes.
Jason: I wanted to have you on. I’d met you briefly at the NARPM Broker/Owner Conference. I was hanging out there with my dad. He’s just getting started. I have a brother who’s got like 600 doors down in Orange County, he’s not just getting started but my dad’s just getting started. I dragged them to NARPM like, “Let’s both go see what this is all about.” We just hung out like I was like a fly on the wall and it was really interesting to see. I touch based with you briefly and said, “Hey, I’d love to set up an interview.”
Jason: You and Gale said, “Okay, great.” Here we are. I had asked at that time aren’t most property managers members of NARPM, or how big is it? The response was no. There’s a lot that aren’t. I was curious about that because almost all of my clients are. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about first what is NARPM?
Bart: Sure. NARPM, like I said, is the National Association of Residential Property Managers. What we are is we’re an association nationwide, over 5,000 members. We are pushing 5,500. Our goal is 6,000 by the end of the year.
What we do is we provide designation, education, and networking opportunities for the single family or what we call scattered site managers.
Apartment managers, commercial managers, they usually tend to go towards more IRM type situation for the commercial site. But we found through NAR and through other organizations that there is not a lot of education and designation for the scattered, the single family or what we call one to four homes—single family, duplex, triplex, fourplex.
We focus on giving our members the opportunity to get better at doing that. We gear all our education towards that.
We have two main events during the year. One is the Broker Owner, which you had just mentioned that you went to in Vegas. That’s in Vegas every year—either March or April, we try to keep it on the springtime. Our focus is on how to grow your business. It’s for the decision makers of the companies to say, “Hey, here is what we can do to help you with marketing, HR, how to set up your company whether you want to do it portfolio style or a departmentalized style of management.”
Then the other big event we have during the year is our National Conference which happens in October of every year. This year, it’s in Hawaii. I highly recommend that trip. That’s a great ride off to go learn how to be a property manager in Hawaii.
In that, we tier that conference for the new property manager, the experienced property manager and then the owner-broker. We try to tier that into three different segments.
It doesn’t mean if you’re an owner-broker, you can’t go to the experienced manager courses. You absolutely could go to those workshops. But everything we do in that conference is taught by members for members.
You’re gonna get the experience of someone who has been doing this for 20 years like myself, teaching people who have been doing it for six months and helping them with what they need to get so that they can be successful in our industry.
Jason: Great! Startups, they are often concerned about costs early on. I’ve noticed a big segment of the market of property management entrepreneurs that are out there in this residential or scattered space that you mentioned have less than 100 doors. They get stuck. They have a hard time even breaking the 50 to 80-door type of mark. That’s about as many as they can handle on their own as a solopreneur.
They’re concerned about costs early on. What benefits would NARPM provide for new property managers? These are the people that I am sure NARPM is seeking to convince to join and become members.
Bart: First thing we can do is we have two listservs. If you have a question or you have a problem or you need something, you just fired out on a listserv and you’re going to get 5,000 people responding to you. The new property managers, in some states, they get better support from their state associations like in Texas. We are very strong. We are supported by TAR. But in other states, they don’t have any support at all.
They don’t have pre-leases. They don’t have management agreements. They don’t have anything. They’re starting from scratch.
These property managers that are new to the industry that are trying to grow from 50 to 100 doors, what we can do is we can offer them a lot of support. We can teach them how to better utilize their time. We can teach them how to put together a policy and procedure manual. We can teach them the tools they need to unbundle their services and get a better fee structure so that they have the resources they need from the clients they have and are making more money with less time.
If they have a service animal issue, and they need an addendum to their form, to their lease, instead of having to recreate that from scratch they can go out and say, “Hey, has anyone had this issue? Do you have a form?” They are going to get five or six different forms that anyone would share and say, “Hey, cut and paste and use what you want. Make it yours.”
That’s what we can do for the new manager. We can help get their feet off the ground by supporting them.
NARPM is really, really a unique organization because even though we are all competitors and we all are in the same industry in trying to get these properties, our true competitors, the do-it-yourselfer, the homeowner who wants to manage it himself, I don’t consider the other property managers in our industry my competition. I actually consider them my colleagues. I don’t aggressively try to take other people’s management. I don’t need to do that. There’s enough out there for all of us to have plenty of properties.
We share and we share just openly. There’s never been a situation where someone has come to me and said, “Hey, I got a situation. I don’t know how to handle this.” Or, “Hey, I heard you are making extra months’ worth of management fees with your Christmas bonus gifts with your tenants. How are you doing that? How are you getting the profit share on that?”
It’s those things that can really open up some resources for the new property manager because they haven’t thought about, “Oh, how can I get that extra fee and increase my bottom line by 100% without offering any new services?”
That’s how we help.
Jason: I love that. NARPM is more of a collaborative environment. It does seem to feel that way. That was one of the best things I noticed being at the Broker Owner Conference, how open everybody was to just help each other out, answer questions.
Some of the best things that my dad got or that I received being there, the takeaways, were just the networking and connecting with other people and saying, “Hey, I am having this challenge.”
Bart: Yeah, absolutely. The purpose of that is for every property manager I touch and I meet at a convention, I say, “Hey, let’s sit down and I will be more than happy to share a secret with you.” I am not making that property manager better by himself, I am making our industry better. The stronger our industry becomes, the more we get recognized.
We are getting recognized in DC now. I spent three solid days in DC talking with Congressman and Senators and I even got a meeting inside HUD with the Chairman of HUD. We are starting to be recognized nationwide and we have tied to a lot of our state associations as well.
NARPM has really come a long way in the fact that we are starting to have a voice in legislation. But making that property manager better makes our industry better, which makes the entire community stronger.
Jason: Yeah, that’s definitely true.
Something I remember from my marketing education days, we were taught that if you want to build a new category, you first promote the category.
Property management is relatively new. It is not something that is on the mind or lips or tongue of most normal people out there that are not familiar with the industry. They are not familiar even what that phrase means sometimes, whereas some of the people I have spoken with in Australia, for example, property management is well-known there, very well developed.
The advantage we have here in the States though, technologically we are far ahead of them. We have really great tools and software for property managers. But property management is a category. Property managers, if they really want to build their business right now, I would say it would benefit them to build the category of property management.
We had Steve Murray of Real Trends on our show. He was also at the Broker/Owner Conference and he had mentioned that property management, I think, currently is half the size, industry-wise, of real estate, but it is going to be growing a lot.
Bart: It is going to be growing. What we are seeing is a trend on that. Typically, the sales market runs anti secular to the property management industry. When sales are strong, management is weak. When management is strong, sales are weak. What we see is we see a lot of fluctuation from agents moving back and forth, in and out of the industry.
But when you get to the professional managers like myself and the other people who are in NARPM, this is what we do. We don’t fluctuate in and out. We are at this every day, growing our industry, growing our portfolios.
I think property management in the last 20 years has really taken off due to the fact that in the last decade of the technology that soared into our industry, we have apps available just for us. We have software and programs now available just for property management.
The REO and the foreclosure industry a few years ago have really made a big impact because these REOs need someone to manage their properties. They started coming to property managers with bundles of properties. We are talking 400 to 500 units at once. That’s a lot for a company to undertake if they have no experience in property management.
As we see this transitioning, we saw big companies come into play now. We’re seeing a lot of franchises and big companies come across the country. I call those the big box of property management, almost like the Home Depots and Walmarts coming to our industry now.
Our industry started with the ma & pa who did sales and couldn’t sell properties for their clients. What they said, “We’ll just manage this for you until the market gets better.” From that, property management has transitioned into a multibillion dollar industry. I see that to continue into the future.
I’m not saying that every property manager will become a Big Box. I certainly won’t. I will maintain a boutique because in a local market, I can out-resource those big boxes every day of the week and twice on Sunday. There’s always going to be a place for the individual property manager who’s professional in his industry in those local markets.
Jason: Yeah, I agree. I think that’s definitely true because if property management is anything like the real estate industry, franchises have made just a small percentage of headway into the market share and they’ve been around forever.
Property management franchises have been around, some of them, the initial ones, for 20 years now. I think Steve Murray pointed it out. They made very, very little progress into siphoning away market share.
Bart: But look at the target market. If you have an investor, let’s take an example a California investor who buys nine properties across the country, that’s a perfect target for those franchises because they can have the same franchise manage every single one of their homes in nine different states. They get the same accounting software. They get the same setup across the board. That’s great for them.
But the majority of investors are not those investors. They’re your reluctant landlords, people who had to be transferred for a job and couldn’t sell their home because they’ve only owned it for six months. They have to lease it until they can get a better position.
It’s the ma & pas of this country who say, “Look, I’m worried about the stock market. I am 55. I need to put my money into an asset that’s not going to depreciate on me 50% over one month if the market crashes.” They’re moving into real estate.
The small investor is where the majority of our business is still in this industry. That’s why I think we’ll be able to compete with the big box franchises all day long.
Jason: Okay, great. How does NARPM feel about the small ma & pa versus the big box?
Bart: We love them both. There’s room for both of those in this. We can learn from each other.
Actually, as President this year, one of the things that I focused on and our board focused on at this Broker Owner was how can we incorporate the big companies into this program because we offer a lot of stuff with the new property manager—it is like a fire hose. We open up a fire hose on these new managers and we flood them with information to help them.
But once you get past 10 to 15 years, or myself who’s been in this industry for 20 years, what can we still offer to those experienced managers? I call it that “ahuh moment” where they come and they go, “I learned one thing and that was worth me coming back next year.”
We focused on that. We talked to Steve Murray and we talked to Steven Hart from RPM and we said, “Look, what could we do to interest you as a franchisee or a big company to say, ‘This is something I could take across the board to all my franchises?’”
We worked on that. We embraced that. We are not scared of the big box. They are going to be out here with us every day of the week.
One of my best friends, he’s gonna be incoming President of NARPM in two years. He’s with Property Management Incorporated, PMI, out of Utah. We’re not concerned about this. This is going to be embraced. It’s gonna be here. It is not going away. We’re gonna figure out a way to work with big and the small.
Jason: Great. Could you explain a little bit about these credentials or designations, these letters that I’m seeing at the end of property managers’ names? Some people are not familiar with that, and you’ve got a few.
Bart: Sure, yeah. Not just within NARPM either. I did a class on this several years ago called Why Be a Professional?
I hold currently 15 designations. I don’t put all of those behind my name because I’ve to go to the back of my business card. I pride myself in trying to educate myself in my industry as much as I can.
In NARPM, we have several class of designations. The first designation you can get is the RMP, the residential management professional. What NARPM prides itself on is our designations are not just a class-work designation.
I have an e-Pro designation, and I have some other designations where you take a test, you get the designation. It doesn’t mean you can do anything. It just means you can pass that one class.
Our designations are based on class work, but also experience. An RPM has guaranteed that they have been on the industry at least two years managing a portfolio averaging 50 properties per year. Then they have done some other services and elective points whether they’ve served on a local board, written some articles and stuff like that.
The next step up from the RNP is the MPM, the master property manager. That requires 150, I believe, or maybe it is 250. It requires 250 unit years of managing over the course of 5 years. Again, more experience, more classes.
After you get your MPM, then your company can be certified as a CRMC, which is a Certified Residential Management Company, which basically says it’s got an MPM onboard and the company has its policies and procedures in check. It’s got its accounting spot on.
Everything is perfect with that company. We come in and audit the company from top to bottom to make sure they’re running the company the way a company should be ran.
We also have several certifications if you are not a professional manager, but maybe you are a support staff. Maybe you’re a bookkeeper. We have a certified bookkeeping certification. We have a certified support staff certification. We have a certified maintenance coordinator certification.
If you work within a property management company, but you are not the actual property manager, we have certifications that can help you as well, which in turn helps the company owner by educating all their employees.
Jason: That’s fantastic. That reminds me of the belt system in martial arts. You get these different colored belts. The challenge is if you don’t know what the different colored belts mean.
Bart: Yeah. That’s true for the general public. I can tell you if someone in the general public were to pull my card and look at my card and see the alphabets SUP out of my card, they are not going to know what that means. I tell people that all the time.
People say, “Why should I get a designation if no one is going to know what it means?” You are right, they’re not. But what they are going to know it means is you’ve taken the time to do something to get those letters.
Those letters mean something which means you care enough about your industry and you care enough to be a professional in your industry that you have gone above and beyond the people without the letters behind their names.
Whether they understand the letters or not, they know it means that you are a step above. That’s all that matters.
Jason: One of the things that helps conversions on websites are trust symbols. I often recommend that clients subscribe to NARPM, become members in NARPM to get the NARPM logo that they can put on their website because it increases conversions on their websites.
It would be really cool if you had symbols, I don’t know if you do, for each of these designations that they could then put on their website because I think then they would start to mean something.
Bart: Basically, we do have symbols for them. We have NARPM lapel pin. We have MPM lapel pins or MP lapel pins. We have symbols for those. Typically, on our websites though, we list the NARPM logo. In our bio section or something, behind our name, we list our designations. We could put the logos up there, and then you have a link that goes back to NARPM that says, “This is what it means.” That’s probably a good idea.
Jason: I love it! As the property management industry grows and as the public becomes more aware of property management as a category, these designations will start to hold weight. People will be looking.
They may not know it, but what people research and when they are looking a property management company and they read the bios or the about page or whatever, and they’re seeing these designations and mentioning a little bit about these things, they’re gonna go look at the other guys and say, “Well, they don’t have these, whatever they are, these designations. This guy sounds really legit. I should trust this guy with my biggest investment ever, my property.”
Bart: That’s correct. Like I said, they may not know what they mean. A savvy person might go and actually look them up. If you went to Google and you typed in MPM, it’s a registered trademark. It’s gonna come up. You’re gonna find that on a Google search. That’s going to take you to NARPM.
Bart: But even if they don’t know what it means, the fact that most people will recognize this, some people may not even understand what PhD means. But if you see a guy’s name with PhD behind it, you immediately know that’s a doctor. It means he went to school longer. He educated himself better.
People understand letters behind the name means you have taken the time to educate yourself in your industry. I think that holds golds of weight when you are talking to somebody versus someone who doesn’t hold any designations at all.
Jason: I will have to see if I can get some letters to put after my name someday.
Bart: There you go. There you go.
Jason: Great, that’s fascinating. I also wanted to ask you what insights have you noticed, or were you surprised to learn as president, you have been a president for a little while now. Being president of NARPM, that probably gives you a different or a unique perspective of the property management industry or of all the companies that are a part of NARPM as a whole.
Bart: It does. I have been on the board now for five years. I am president this year. Then, next year, I will switch over to past president as Steve Schultz moves in from Tucson, Arizona.
One of the things that fascinates me is the backend work that you don’t see as a member or as just a property manager in the association. There is a lot of work that goes into running this association.
We have five major committees, communication, finance, professional development, membership. Then there’s designation and stuff like that, convention committees. There’s a lot of working parts that goes on behind the scenes that until you move up on the board, you don’t have access to those or see those. It’s the people.
As president of the association, one of the things that fascinates me is how many people really do invest their time to give back to this organization and to this industry.
That’s been one of the eye-openers for me as a president, to see all the moving wheels and see all the people that serve on all these committees and actually take the time to do stuff to make things better, not just at the national level. We have chapters and cities across the country. We have state chapters. All those take manpower to run and to bring benefit and ROI to the members at the local level. That’s some of the things that just amazed me.
One of the things that I try to do when I travel as well is I try to visit property manager offices in the city that I am in. I like to visit people.
One of my favorite people to visit is Betty Fletcher. She’s in Little Rock, Arkansas. Betty runs a medium sized ma & pa property management company. She’s about 300 or 350 doors. It’s her and her husband.
But the system that they have in place, I can just look around their office and say, “Yes, you’ve got that from NARPM. Yeah, I can see that vendor here. Wow, she’s got three affiliates over here with their product running different things over here.”
It really amazes me that the people who are in NARPM actually utilizing the affiliates and the vendors and all the stuff that NARPM offers to make themselves better. It really hits home when you visit an office and go, “Wow, look at all the stuff they have learned while they have been on NARPM.”
Jason: Yeah. So one of your insights is the volunteerism is quite surprising, just seeing everybody volunteer. Then also your example, Betty, you are seeing that NARPM really having a direct impact on people’s businesses.
Bart: It is, absolutely, yup.
Jason: Great! What’s the best part of being King of NARPM?
Bart: Well, I am a very humble person. I don’t consider myself the “King of NARPM.” I have a tremendous board. I have probably one of the best teams I’ve ever worked with at my side. It’s a humbling experience to know that the members of this association look to me for guidance and say, “Hey yeah, this is the person we want to lead our organization for the next year.”
I told a good friend of mine, Ray Scarabosio from San Francisco, I said, “Look, if I leave it just a tad bit better than I found it, I’ve done my job.” I am not trying to move mountains here. I am a former marine. One of the books I gave to my board this year to read before we started our tenure was a book by Captain Marquet called Turn the Ship Around! Basically, it describes leader-leader type leadership.
Instead of me dictating, “Hey, I want you to do this, this, this, this, this and I am going to micromanage you to death until you do it.” Basically, I am going to say, “This is the outcome I am looking for. Go get it done.”
I empower them to be the leaders they need to be to finish the product and bring me back the results. I’m not going to sit there and tell them how I want them to do it.
It’s a fascinating book. What’s really been interesting about that this year is it has really flourished. It has flourished all the way down to the committees where the committee chairs are taking leadership of their committee and saying, “This is the task the board is giving us from strategic planning. This is what we need to do to get it done. We are empowered to do that as long as we stay inside our budget.”
Things are getting done at rapid paces. We are creating more online course this year than we ever have. Our courses have been booked down in full at every event that they have been offered at.
Michael [McCurie [00:25:43] and Lynn [Sadelac [00:25:43] in Professional Development and the staff at OMG Daily Fly, they’ve done a tremendous job with education this year because that was one of my pushes. I wanted better education for our members so that our members have better return on investment. It’s been a humbling experience this year, but it has been a lot of fun being able to lead this association.
Jason: About the education, what things are you educating property managers on?
Bart: Well, we educate property managers on everything from risk management, owner relations, tenant relations, habitability issues, fair housing, HUD, lead-based paint disclosures, contracts, ethics. We educate them from top to bottom. We have classes on all those subjects.
Jason: Is NARPM the best place to go to learn property management?
Bart: It’s the best place to go if you are a scattered manager or a single family manager. You are not going to find this education anywhere else.
Most real estate courses or most real estate, even exams, I’ll take the State of Texas for example because that’s where I am from, there’s maybe one or two questions in the exam that have to do with property management.
Texas is unique that we do have a property management course. We also have a broker responsibility course because one of the biggest suits in Texas has been property management claims. We have a broker responsibility course to teach brokers that if your agents are doing property management, you are ultimately liable for what they do. We’re trying to stress that.
But if you want hands down where-the-rubber-meets-the-road education on property management, NARPM is the place to get it.
Jason: Fantastic. Yeah, there seems to be an opportunity there. I heard the other day from, I did an event with a gal from Atlanta and it was fantastic. She talked about how she’s involved with the Board of Realtors there. The number one source of complaints she discovered at the board of realtors had nothing to do with real estate, it had to do with property management related things. The management of trust accounts, leases, things like this. I see that NARPM fills this gap.
Bart: That’s correct. That’s our ultimate goal. When we go to these state associations, we’d say, “Look, your number one charge on your recovery fund is from commingling of funds or embezzlement from property managers.” We can help reduce the amount of your recovery fund deficits every year if you will join with us and give us a property management committee and let us educate property managers at your state level.
Most of the states have welcomed us with open arms. There’s a few states here and there, Idaho for example, the out-west state that doesn’t require license to do property management, you can just hang your shingle and start a business out there.
But most states require licensing now to be a property manager because they have seen the writing on the wall. They see that you are handling billions of dollars of assets for other people. The amount of charges and recovery fund deficits that occur from those fraudulent activities is overwhelming.
Even they’re now looking to us at NARPM to say, “Hey, what kind of courses are you offering? What kind of courses do you have? Can we offer this? If we do, we will give our members continued education credit within the state if they will take them.” That’s been a huge bonus for us in the last five years.
Jason: Fantastic. Bart, how does somebody find out about NARPM? How do they learn about it? How do they join?
Bart: Sure. What you can do is you can go to narpm.org. That will take you to our website. You can join right on our website. There’s a lot of About Us information on that website.
A lot of cities, if you’re from a major metropolitan city, a lot of cities have local chapters. What you can do is you can find a chapter right there on our homepage. If your city does have a chapter, you can go to a chapter meeting. They will welcome you at the chapter meeting. People will talk to you and tell you about NARPM.
Our number one marketing tool is still member to member. Most people who join NARPM join NARPM because they said they heard about it from another agent or from another property manager.
We try real hard to get the information out. We are at NAR every year. I have been at NAR for the last three years working a booth in the tradeshow trying to get the word out of who we are, we’re here and we can help you.
But the key thing is just go to our homepage, narpm.org. You can find all the information you need, and you can join right there.
As soon as you join, you get a welcome letter, you get a free ethics class right off the bat. You can sign up for the listers and start asking questions of property managers. You get discounts on all of our education and our conventions.
Jason: Fantastic. Bart, I appreciate you taking the time out.
Anybody watching this or listening later, make sure to go to NARPM to check them out. If you are a property manager that is not a member of NARPM, I highly recommend that you do it. I recommend you get the trust symbol. I recommend you put that in your website. It makes you look more credible and legit.
Go to the events. A lot of property managers starting out feel like they can’t afford the time to go to the events, but that’s probably one of the biggest mistakes they can make, I think, starting out. They get so much insight, so much info. My dad walked away with lots of takeaways. And I think it’s very beneficial to connect and rub shoulders with other people and not feel like you’re alone.
For a lot of entrepreneurs, especially solopreneurs starting on property management, it can be a pretty taxing business especially if you feel isolated and like you are in it all by yourself. You’re not. You’ve got NARPM to help you along the way.
Bart: That is right. If you go to an event and you don’t get a tip or something that helps you, come find me out. I will give you a tip that will pay for your next three conventions. I guarantee it.
Jason: Fantastic. Maybe we will have to have you on to again talk about that.
Jason: Hey, Bart. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for coming out.
Bart: You bet, Jason. Thanks for the time.
Jason: You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com.
Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff; SEO, PPC, Pay Per Lead, content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve the biggest challenge getting deals in growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com.
Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events, or news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time. Take what you’ve learned and start doorgrow hacking your business and your life.